Flipping Houses at Scale Not Lifting A Hammer | Sam Eddinger

In this episode, we dive into the strategic insights of a seasoned real estate investor and property manager. He shares valuable lessons on the importance of starting early, holding properties for the long term, and developing successful partnerships. The discussion covers scaling a house flipping business, leveraging property management resources, and employing effective financial strategies such as utilizing home equity lines of credit. Real-world examples and personal experiences highlight how disciplined saving, reinvestment, and vertically integrating business processes can lead to substantial wealth creation. Key takeaways include the benefits of long-term property holding, the power of compound growth, and the importance of aligning goals and values in business partnerships.

To learn more about Sam Eddinger: 

https://ironcladpm.com/

https://www.instagram.com/ironclad_properties/

00:36 Expert Insights: Flipping and Rentals
01:05 Scaling the Flip Business
02:57 Vertical Integration and Vendor Management
05:46 Partnerships and Leveraging People
10:00 Building Wealth Beyond Business
13:50 Financial Strategies and Risk Management
19:18 Property Management and Investment Synergy
25:23 Final Thoughts and Advice

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Transcript

 The best time to plant a tree is years ago. The second best time is today. So a lot of it is just to get started. I don't know if tomorrow housing prices are gonna go down, but what I do know is if you hold with a time horizon that you're never gonna sell, it will be higher in the future. All you have to do is hold forever.

And so what I caution people is buying properties and chasing the return. 'cause generally you're buying someone else's problem. So know that if you're buying something, it seems too good to be true. It is. And just buy properties that you know that you would be willing to hold for long periods of time.

And if you do, then hold for long periods of time. 

Hey Sam. Thanks so much for joining today, man. I wanted an opportunity to just kind of pick your brain because like you are, in my opinion, an expert investor, like you're crushing it with flipping. You have a bunch of rentals that own. And I think it's just super intriguing to share with our community well, like what you're doing to achieve those things.

So just kind of give me a little bit like what has been one win that you have recently had that has made you the most excited? 

Yeah. I think, uh, scaling up our flip business. Uh, is probably the most exciting. You know, I, I've been thinking a lot about myself as an entrepreneur in a way. I have a few children now, right?

I have the property management child. I have this flip business child. I have some other investing child. I have, you know, my property management properties themselves or a child, and I think of them all a little bit. Differently. Uh, but I would say my flip business, I never thought we would be able to even do 20 flips in a year.

And we're hoping to push for 40 next year, and if I do 40, it's likely that I could do somewhere around a million dollars in profit, which is really, really exciting to me. 

Yeah, that's huge. So how do you, you know, when you think about that million dollars, like how do you exacerbate that million dollars of income into a wealth strategy?

So it will continue to snowball and flywheel for you? 

Well, that's what I love about, uh, these two businesses, the investing and the flip, because I've partnered with a person that is not well capitalized, and so I actually get to utili. I get to make money on flips in multiple different ways. Right. I get to make money as a, like a lender, right?

And then I also get to make money and putting that money to work for all the renovations and the closing costs and things like that. And so essentially I'm providing a lot of value because of that. I also provide a lot of value because of the property management company with respect to vendors that I have and doing all the 10 90 nines and paying people by a CH, like I actually allow the system to be more efficient because of the property management naturally.

And that is a lot of the value that I'm providing. Um, with my par partner on the flip side. So I just love the fact that I'm able to really deploy capital efficiently and it doesn't, it's not like I'm spending a lot of time analyzing all of these, you know, these, whether or not I should actually invest in this specific opportunity.

They are opportunities that I'm directly doing. And so like, it's just that much more efficient. 

No, I love that. So you're really getting to vertically integrate. Into a business and it is just such a natural fit in the PM business. I love that. You also have, I just wanna be clear, you also have some maintenance, uh, companies or is this, are you using third parties to do these, these flips 

as well?

Yeah, all third party. I don't have a maintenance company. I don't know if I'll ever wanna get a maintenance company, but still, like, you know, if you're flipping 20 or 40 units a year, like you need to find vendors. And so we even have maintenance coordinators that are already finding vendors. So we can say, Hey, look, I need you to help find more vendors, like specifically these type of vendors.

And so I already have naturally resources. The, the benefit of the, of this, um, Sean, just to be very clear to this audience, is I don't have to do it myself. Yeah. Like I have people that can find this. I have people that can help do 10 90 nines. I have all of these resources that I'm able to continue to leverage in a way that can allow me to monetize another way.

So another perfect example, we have a BDM from Nicaragua. We're trying to talk to for sale by owners. Okay. And so when you talk to a for sale by owner, if you call 'em and say, Hey, you wanna list your property? Like they're, they're, they're already for sale by owner, they're gonna hang up on you. You say, Hey, do you wanna like have me manage your property?

They've said they want to sell, right? So we have the BDM coming in and saying, Hey, look like we have opportunities to buy your property, right? 'cause we flip regularly, right? But why is it that you're selling anyway? We know that over time real estate continues to appreciate in value and maybe if you can't get the number you want, or maybe if you recognize like us, it's gonna continue to be better.

We should manage for you for a period of time so that you can then get even more money in the future. How's that sound? So you're going in with an in. That allows you to actually have a different conversation than we just wanna manage your property. So I'm kind of starting to utilize this even as a mechanism to try to be able to sell property management services in a different way.

No, I love that you're actually getting to the heart of the matter where I think most salespeople wanna just sell the product and they forget that you're actually not selling a product. You're actually helping them guide into something that is gonna be a solution to them. That's a totally different thing than a sales product.

So kudos to that. So let's talk about your, uh, your flipping business. You are funding this. You're not having to be the guy that throws the hammer, coordinate the maintenance to a certain extent. I'm sure I also do some of that with another, uh, community member. Barrett, I'm calling you out 'cause you're not.

Doing anything in the forums, but it's super intriguing to me too because I love the, I see the potential of VS and flips. I absolutely love it. It has such a huge, uh, monetary gain when it's done well and it's systematized. You guys are doing 40, will be doing 40 flips a year. How did you find this partnership?

'cause not everybody seems to know how to find the relationship side of starting this type of business. And once they do, man it, it explodes. 

Couple things on that. The first is that, um, I recognized that, you know, what got me here won't get me there, right? And that was about, I used to be about zero sum. I was essentially saving all my nickels, right?

But you can't save your nickels to a billion dollars, right? And not that I wanna be a billionaire, but I wanted to set a very lofty goal to see where my limitation takes me. And so I recognize that the only way then to grow is to learn how to leverage people effectively. And I think partnerships is a huge part of that.

So I've been working with this guy for a few years and we've kind of, at some times decided to, to go off and uh, and just go on on our own ways. But it was probably a year ago maybe. Two years ago where we started talking about, okay, what would a flip partnership look like? Right? And I'd already had experience with him 'cause we lended and we helped him successfully exit a property in Middletown.

So I got to know him in that one transaction. And that's one of the beautiful things about flips. It's transaction, that transaction dependent. So like you could say, Hey, we're done as soon as all of our flips are over, it's not like a property management company where. It's hard to You're married to him.

Exactly. And so like, we were able to go in that one pretty successfully, but then it was more about a recognition on where I can add value and where he can add value. Right. And so I knew that I, I, I'm not a naturally gifted salesperson and he was building out a, a. System to acquire these physical properties.

And so, but I was like, Hey, I'm gonna help as much as I can. And so I found a couple opportunities that I brought to the table and I offered them for free. Whereas with him, again in the vertical integration, we pay him for finding the properties. So he gets $10,000. It's a wholesale fee, and so that incentivizes him to help find the properties.

I get essentially the fee from the, from the lending. So I'm making like hard money rates. And then we split whatever we make on the physical property. And then he also makes money because he's selling the property and he's a broker, so he makes it on the commission there too. So there's a lot of places where we're both making a bunch of money, which lends it to be really, really, really beneficial.

So with respect to partnerships, I'm always looking for three things. One is, do I like the person, right? Because if you don't like the person, you know that in any business relationship, bad things are gonna eventually happen. So if you like the person, then you want to fix it and save it. So that's the first one is do I like the person?

The second is, do we have common goals for this specific situation? Do we wanna hold, do we wanna reinvest capital? Do we wanna take everything out? You know, what is that situation? Because if you have one person that wants to pull everything out and the other person wants to reinvest, that naturally is gonna cause conflict down the line.

So you wanna make sure that you're aligned with your goals for this partnership. And last but not least is you want to like to do things that the other person doesn't like to do. And they like to do things that you don't like to do. Right? Because that becomes the clear delineation of the responsibility, right?

And so we did that where he liked, he was okay doing all of the call in the people trying to find the leads. And obviously I pay him for that. Then he would, uh, scope the work that was needed, right. And figure out what the, uh, the offer could be, which I didn't wanna do. Then when I, I would fund the deals and make sure that they're getting funded and that we can pay the vendors.

He would then meet the vendor with the work scope to get the quote. Then he would go periodically to follow up and see the physical properties. And then last but not least, when it was ready, he would take pictures and he would market it. Right. So most of these flips pretty much every single one of these flips right now, I've never seen.

Mm-hmm. So I can do it from anywhere too. If you build the right partnerships, I could be in, you know, Puerto Rico drinking on the beach and he could be continuing to slay and I could just be printing money. So it, it was really just a great relationship where I'm providing a lot of value to him and he's providing an equal level to me.

And we figured out places where each could monetize separately. You know, and vertically integrate and like it just really works well. 

Yeah, I love that. That's really good. Good advice on finding partnerships. It's not an easy task. Look, I know there's a lot of podcasts out there. And hopefully this one right here is providing you with a ton of value.

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We appreciate you very much. So let's kind of pivot a little bit. So yeah, what really made you realize. That you wanted to go beyond running a business and start building wealth? Like what was that moment maybe in your past, you're like, I want do more than that. Just the business. 

I've always like, you know, there's two types of people.

There's savers and, and, uh, spenders. And I've always been a saver. I remember when I was a kid growing up, I would try to save all my money. Oh. There'd be like, oh, you wanna spend some money on candy? I was like, no. I would always think like, Hey, if I save this money, I could get more candy in the future. So like, I am the poster child of delayed gratification.

So, you know, that was a, that was a large part of it. I just, you know, always had this desire to, to save money. So even in my first job I was like maxing out my four one K. Right. And I've pretty much maxed out my four one K every single year that I've worked since then. And so, and it was always, it was for a couple reasons.

One is because. I knew because my wife and I have six kids, that there would come a time when my wife and I would want to probably have her be a stay at home mom. And needing to have two salaries is makes it very difficult for that to happen. But if you have a situation where you're maxing out the 401k, so you're living on less.

It's easier than even if I have to reduce my contribution to my 401k to make it work, it's easier to make things work. So I was very thoughtful on that type of thing. Um, and then I saw my dad on a teacher salary grow a multimillion dollar real estate portfolio. And so I really recognize the value on of compounding, uh, real estate.

People now say that my dad has the Midas touch, that he even, he even hoops gold, right? That's the expression that they have. The truth of the situation is my dad is a terrible real estate investor. He would never buy properties that cash flow, right? He was the antithesis of what you need to do. But my dad like me, what he is amazing at is never selling.

He would just figure it out and he'd figure it out, and then he'd figure it out in a property that he overpaid for 180,000 that had a lot of land on it. Now he thinks he can sell for 2 million, right? Because he's held it for 30 years plus. Right. So it's one of those situations where I saw that it doesn't take a lot of money.

It just takes a lot of time and dedication to do that. And so, uh, when I was, uh, I was an engineer in my previous life, and so I left company in San Diego that I worked for, and they gave me a book on Landlording, right? That was my going away present that they all signed. So even then, back in 2005, 6, 7, 8, I was talking about it and then I came back to Connecticut and I continue to talk about it, right?

But like, unlike most people, I don't just talk to talk. I actually was building and strategizing. Again, delayed gratification, being able to think in long periods, not short periods, about what was my play. And I recognized that the market still had not fully bottomed. So I started buying in 2012, and then I bought in 20 13, 20 14, 20 15.

I just started buying aggressively. I bought three properties in one day. These were all in the MLS. They were so easy to define. I was telling people it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Yeah, it was so easy back then. It was, I mean, you think about it, it's like you have interest rates that are all time lows.

You have housing prices that are like distressed. Right? And you had people losing their houses that would eventually have to rent. Yep. Like it was a perfect storm. And I was telling people this and like they didn't do it. 

Well, they, they were fearful then because they just, they just thought 2008 was just a repetitive thing.

Yeah, and so I, again, I started continuing to accumulate wealth. I was, again, working as an engineer. I used my W2 income to do that, and then I, you know, I just kept rinsing and repeating. Eventually I would use the bur method before I even knew what the Bird method was. You know, I would buy it and then basically I would fix it up, and then a year later I would re cash out, refinance, get more than my money out.

Then I would deploy that capital for the next property. So I was able to leverage from one property to, I think my wife and I have 20 something properties. We have this big office building here. I've got, I think I have two or three or four of the properties that are the flips and cash currently. Um, and right now I'm leveraging equity lines of credit that I have on my properties.

So it's like, you know, I'm just redeploying the capital efficiently and I'm getting a delta on the equity line. 

How do you, how do you kind of gauge your risk tolerance on debt? That is outstanding versus equity. That's, that's also outstanding. 

Yeah. So I, uh, I, one of my things is I don't ever wanna lose all my, I don't ever have to start over.

Right. So I think that while you, it wouldn't seem like it subconsciously, I still am doing that. So I know so many people that in 2021 cash out, refinanced all of their properties. Right. So I, I still have. Mortgages from 2012 when I was first, first starting to buy. Mm. That are 30 years. They're 13 years into the mortgage.

Right. So like, that's kind of one of the things that I did. So I, every single year I do an analysis of what is essentially my equity. And I have pretty much in excess of 50% equity in, in over my entire portfolio. So even if I were to lose something or whatever, I have enough in these other areas to not have to worry about it too much.

You know, we have a. A very similar approach too, and I think we looked at it, you know, like you're willing to take some bigger risks early on and have a little bit more debt outstanding. And as the portfolio matures to naturally shrink that risk back a little bit, where there's more equity outstanding than there is debt.

And I totally get that. You said something I thought was. Really important is that it's re uh, in two conversations really, or two points, is that it's really hard for people to ever tweak back their lifestyle. And you said something that I never wanna have to start over again. And that's where most people, I think in your story's really cool because you started frugally and it wasn't hard to ever tweak it back.

Most people start, you know, they get. If they get a raise at the job and they just go ahead and increase the lifestyle instead of taking the raise at the job to invest more and the lifestyle never creeps up, what would you give advice to somebody that is in that lifestyle? Creep your saver. They've increased their lifestyle, but they also want.

To see savings compound and they're not seeing that. What would, what advice would you give them? 

Yeah, so my, my take on it is, the first thing that you should do is whenever you get a raise, I think some companies do it where you increase your match, you increase your, well, you wanna always get to your match for sure, but you increase your 401k an equal amount to the raise that you got.

Right? So then in that year, if you do it right away, well you're not seeing any additional. Income that's coming in. And if you do that every year over a number of years, well you're starting to kind of build the muscle, right? To be able to recognize. And then once you get to the point where you're maxing out your 401k, well now any one of those incremental increases that you get, okay, well maybe now what you do is you put it into a brokerage account or you do something else.

That's one way to do it. Um, one of the things that I did though was, and I think this is one of the. Most important things that I do, uh, that I really loved is I pretty much never had a mortgage on my primary residence. 

Mm. 

I had a ho home equity line of credit. 

Okay. Right. Hey, so on your, uh, your portfolio.

Yeah. And so, so basically what I did then is anytime I had extra money, I would pay down my home equity line of credit. And so I could always take out the money if I needed to, but it was never in my account sitting there for some reason. So it was a lot more thoughtful about, okay, well these are the expenses that I wanna make in a given month, and I need to basically take the money out of the equity line to cover those expenses.

But then as you see the equity line going down, down, down, down, down, well now that allowed me to deploy that capital to actually buy the investment properties. So it kind of had a, a double it allowed me, instead of like saving, it kind of was my method of setting aside that money and paying it down, but then also being able to utilize that money as, as leverage if I want to, we lever by buying another asset.

So that was one of the things that I did that I think was the most instrumental in getting to where I was because the money was always there. I always thought about it as this is my money for. Real estate investing. 

Mm-hmm. I think, I think that works really well for a disciplined spender and a disciplined investor.

I think where the average person really struggles with that is like they would build up their credits or their credit cards, their debt on their credit card, and it would get big. And then society tells 'em, well do a consolidation loan and they consolidate it all into one and then they rebuild their credit card debt and essentially that never will work because they get dig a deeper hole.

But you are the. Exception, I think. 

Yeah. And, and one of the things that I did too is I did, uh, we did Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University. So that's another good area if you feel like you're not dedicated, is to learn how to gamify the system. It's like we were talking about it before. We're doing a wellness initiative for my entire company.

And so if all of us are working together. We're more likely to follow through with it. Some of it could be get accountability partners, find other people that wanna start on this journey, kinda like you're doing this community that you're, that you're building. And then have accountabilities where people are setting aside money to do it.

Mm-hmm. Right. And, and phrasing the Wow, that's ama, you're almost there. Right. Like that might be in a good approach too, is just to, you know, have positive peer pressure on it. But you're right, like in reality, I, I am not the type of person that's gonna take that money outta my equity line and buy a boat.

Right. It works for me. But I do recognize, like you're saying that a lot of other people are not as disciplined. 

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, and it's interesting, my, my in-laws have. Retired for several years and they used their home equity line as a slush fund to go buy the crap. And it's like, guys, you are way too far in life to be spending money on stuff that depreciates on credit.

And not only depreciates, but it, it goes, you know, it goes against you twice because of the credit side. But, uh, kudos on that. That's a really cool, uh, strategy that you started out with. What role has the property management business really played in you being able to create, uh, this wealth or this funding of investments, even the deal flow?

It's gone well. Um, I'm a numbers guy and so I really love judging the performance of the property management company that I have versus other companies, right? So there's a lot of really good data on like the Norfolk counting standards where. They talk about like, what does good financial performance look like?

And so I'm always judging myself based on that so that I can actually make real profit. Right? And so then from that real profit, I've done certain things where I've continued to buy assets. So this office building that I'm in, I felt like it, and I know office buildings are, are taking a beating right now, but we're basically at this point because of some really good decisions we made to renovate all of the units and to, you know, and to modernize it from when it was built in 1989 to.

You know, 2025, we're making an excess of $10,000 a month a profit, right on, you know, a $300,000 investment. Which is like at least 10% cash on cash. And I think when I had calculated before, because of the fact that we're actually paying down equity and stuff, it's more like a 30% cash on cash. You know? So some of those type of things, I've been able to use the money from the property management company to support that.

Recently I actually did a life insurance policy. So a lot of the, a lot of the stuff that I'm doing is more of a diversification. So I have like money in Fidelity accounts as a 401k. I have a 401k with the company that, that I. Put money into, I have real estate that I invest in. I have these flips that I do.

I have lending that I do on the flips. I have the properties that I own with mortgages, but I also decided that I was gonna do a life insurance policy game. That's, I don't wanna talk too much about it, but basically it takes about a a hundred thousand dollars a year. But when I turn 65, if the numbers are right, I'll be able to draw forever four to $500,000 a year tax free.

So that's one of the things that I do with the money too, is I take out that money from the property management company and I can invest it in that asset class as well. 

Yeah, that's really cool. I think the Rockefellers were big into that strategy, and we also have a life insurance policy that is very similar to that, and we haven't gone to the next step, which is to actually withdraw that cash available cash in there and to reinvest because that is the next.

Stage, if you will, but we haven't done that, so kudos to that. That's really cool. Hey, we're on a mission to make this podcast the very best for you, our incredible listeners. Here's something I've noticed many of you who listen regularly, haven't subscribed yet, and honestly, one of the easiest ways you can support us right now is by clicking that follow or subscribe button.

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Your support means the world to us. What would you tell somebody? That you know, is just on the cusp behalf a property management company. It's becoming successful, but they don't see maybe the long-term gain of investing. Like how would you coach them through that? One 

of the things that I've always said is, personally, this is the question that if I've ever.

Tell someone what question should any person thinking about a property management company to manage is to ask is do you own real estate? Because I feel like if you don't actually practice what you preach mm-hmm. Like how can you really have my best interest at heart? If you don't know what it's like to have to come up with a $10,000 repair.

So I just feel like not having any investment property for me is a big red flag for any property management company owner. So that's one thing that I would say. The second thing I would say is like really knowing that you're starting to do well, like lean into the financial performance because ultimately it's gonna get to a point where if you look at the financial payments, you can do even better.

And then sometimes opportunities will come to you and then you can do it, be it part of your entire portfolio, like I think you've done very successfully a number of times in my partnership with my business partner that does the flips, like this year we bought a condo that's worth 200,000 that I ended up buying it to him from for a hundred.

So some of the deals that he ends up. Doing, he just sells to me because it's easier for me just to own and operate it. So I've had at least two properties that I've purchased in the last few years just like that, that I bought at a, uh, extreme discount. And he liked it because he essentially just got an influx of like 20 or $30,000 without having to do anything.

So I think that there's a lot of ways to utilize that cash in ways that you can continue, that can continue to compound for long periods of time. One of the things that I like to think about, or I, I read Warren Buffett's, uh, biography. He talks about how he loves rein. He loves buying assets that he can reinvest, uh, capital in.

So, because if you can reinvest the capital more efficiently, then you can deploy it in other things or, or utilize it. Well, then you'll grow leaps and bounds over that, that other method. Right? So he was, he, you know, bought a railroad, which he ended up upgrading stuff and now it's printing extra money.

And he bought, you know, a, uh, I think Constellation group or whatever, which is a, a energy company where he can generate more energy and that generation capacity allows him to. Charge energy fees for long periods of time. So I love the fact in a way that buying real estate allows me to efficiently utilize my capital.

What does that mean? Well, I can buy a distressed single family home and I can deploy my capital to actually renovate it and to make it nice so that I can rent it for more and money, and then I'm deploying that capital. So I actually like that it kind of forces me to pull money from my system so that I can then actually make a, a higher return in the future.

Love that. I think you're talking about financial principles that are tried and true. Live below your means, invest the rest and continue to not. Let the lifestyle creep up. Obviously when you start making a ton of money, money becomes irrelevant, and you obviously could do that. But the point is, is that even billionaires can go broke, and what you're saying is just continue to compound and reinvest into those businesses, and that's where exponential growth happens.

That's where true compounding happens. So kudos on that. Thank you, Sam, for sharing that. I think just having you here just is exactly why I wanted to build this community and, and I so much appreciate your time because you know what? Most property managers aren't investing and they don't even know where to start, and property management is literally the gateway drug to amazing real estate.

But it's not only a gateway drug to that, it's a gateway drug to amazing wealth. Because we are transactional. We are regulatory, and it just is recurring revenue and it's super awesome. Plus we have inside access to really. Fantastic real estate deals, so thanks. Uh, thanks, Sam. Any, any, uh, parting words to help our fellow community members out there?

I think the, the most important thing, what, what's, what's the expression? I don't know if it was, uh, I don't remember what exactly it was. The best time to plant a tree is years ago. The second best time is today. Right. So a lot of it is just to get started, one other piece of advice that I, I give most people, especially in this high interest rate environment, I don't know if tomorrow housing prices are gonna go down.

I don't. But what I do know is if you hold with a time horizon that you're never gonna sell, it will be higher in the future. Like my dad and them saying that he poops gold like he never bought. Good. You don't have to buy good. All you have to do is hold forever. And so what I caution people is buying properties and, and, and think and chasing the return.

And saying, oh, I'm gonna make, uh, you know, 20% cash on cash or whatever else. 'cause generally you're buying someone else's problem. So know that if you're buying something, it seems too good to be true. It is. And just buy properties that you know, that you would be willing to hold for long periods of time.

And if you do, then hold for long periods of time, you can't do anything but make lots of money. 

Oh, I love that. Yes. The biggest mistake people make in, uh, real estate is the opportunity costs they never gained. Yeah. I'm totally with you, Sam. Thanks a lot. Appreciate your time. Sounds good, Sean. Bye. Cheers.

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